Asase Ba Podcast - S1E2: Divination & Juju Stigma in the Ghanaian
Transcript
[Asase Ba Theme Music]
Michelle: Hello and welcome to Asase Ba, a podcast that honours oral tradition and shines light on Ghanaian culture and stories that are often untold or silenced. I'm your host, Michelle, and my pronouns are she and her.
So welcome to episode two! Y'all like, I am so happy that we're on to episode two. If you haven't listened to the first episode of Asase Ba, go and listen. It’s a very insightful and candid conversation with theatre artist Tawiah. And we talked about his experiences as a queer Ghanaian man, so go check it out. So again, welcome to episode two and thank you to everyone that has supported the podcast. Thanks for listening, sharing and subscribing.
And honestly, sharing goes a long way. If you're enjoying Asase Ba and you want to let other people know about it, share it, tell your friend, your sister, your aunty, your uncle, your cousin. Tell all of them to listen and just share it so that we can really build out this community and foster it and everything. Also, if you know someone who's looking for a Ghanaian podcast that explores stories that are often untold or silenced, tell them about this podcast. Tell them about Asase Ba.
Don't keep it to yourself. You know, this is a passion project for me, but it also requires a lot of labour on my part and just knowing that you guys are listening and sharing and subscribing and spreading the word and telling others, it's just very motivating to me and just lets me know that y'all are really listening and all of that. So please share this podcast and subscribe wherever you listen. So this podcast is on Spotify, Apple, SoundCloud, Google Play, Google Podcasts, Castbox and a bunch of other places. Wherever you listen to podcasts, it's mostly there.
And when you listen, please feel free to join in on the conversation. So use the #AsaseBaPod. So that's the name of the podcast with “pod” and use that on Twitter, Instagram, wherever you are on social media, just so I see that you're listening and engaging in all of that fun stuff.
Alight so episode two. This is episode two of five of season one of Asase Ba. And this is a very interesting topic that I personally would love to hear more discussion on in the Ghanaian community. It's more spiritual in nature. And in this episode, I interview Ayo. Ayo, pronouns they/them is a visual artist originally from Ghana and Lesotho. Ayo’s primary mediums include digital art, film, photography and digital filmmaking. They enjoy exploring issues of identity, specifically societal expectations of race, gender and sexuality through their films.
So during my conversation with Ayo, we discussed divination, manifestation and connecting with ancestors. We also chat about Yoruba divination, stigmas associated with traditional African spirituality, colonial propaganda, religious syncretism as it relates to Islam and Yoruba divination and much, much more. Honestly, this was such a great, great, interesting interview with Ayo. It's super engaging, insightful and also really caused me to reflect on my spirituality as it relates to my Ghanaian heritage. So here is episode two of Asase Ba. I hope you enjoy it and I will see you after the interview.
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Michelle: Today I have with me Ayo. Ayo, can you tell the audience a bit about yourself?
Ayo: My name is Ayo. I'm a visual artist, born and raised in Ghana, of Yoruba and Lesotho descent and I'm here to talk to you today about divination.
Michelle: All right Ayo, so tell us about your spirituality, what's what is there like a name was the name of the religion that you practice?
Ayo: I don't know that I would call it a religion or a practice really, because that seems really formalized and particularly…like it just feels really clearly defined. But I've heard a few different words used for it.
My dad usually uses divination or we just kind of talk about it plainly and describe what we're talking about. There's an understanding of what we're talking about. But I think I would use the word “divination” because it just seems to work. And if you Google Yoruba divination, something usually comes up. But I think what I'm referring to in terms of this thing that I know of, is really just something…to be honest, that I think a lot of people are aware of and that goes by a lot of different names.
I think, like maybe…some people call it manifestation, some people call it clairvoyance, but I think divination works a little bit. Some people call it magic. Some people call it bullshit. But I think that divination is the word that feels the best to me.
Michelle: You mentioned Yoruba divination. So is that what you practice, something specifically from the Yoruba culture or do you practice divination from a specifically Ghanaian, Northern Ghanaian tradition?
Ayo: I think that that's just a little bit of a difficult question to answer just because, again, it's not as clearly defined. And I think maybe that might be because of my connection to it being a little bit weaker and not necessarily having someone to guide me through certain things. I don't even really know what to call it, but with the specific brand of divination or manifestation or anything that I think I have been exposed to…
It's interesting because I know that there is an elder that is kind of…not assigned to our family, that has like a good relationship with our family, who is a Muslim elder, but also has a clear vision of things than a lot of other people. So he'll kind of give us information about whatever seems the most compelling, depending on which family member visits him. My dad translates because he speaks Dagbani, so my dad is able to translate for us.
I know that he's Muslim, but I also know that there's something else going on and that's not really something that a lot of people talk about, unfortunately. But when it comes to myself and the things that I know are kind of run in the family, it's way less clear. I think this elder that my family has a close connection to and close relationship with probably knows exactly what he's doing and he has a name for it and he knows the rules and there's certain things that you can do and you can't do.
But for me, really, just based on my own personal experience, it just really depends on how much energy I give it and what exactly I'm hoping to manifest. I think what I do is kind of just manifestation, to be honest. And I think it helps that I know that on my dad's side at least, that this is something that is prominent within our family. My grandfather had a gift for these things and my dad does as well. I do. I've talked to my siblings about it before and they know that some things up, you know what I mean?
It's just kind of vague. And everyone's experiences is pretty unique and mine kind of ebbs and flows. Sometimes I give it more attention, sometimes I don't. Sometimes I look into it a lot. But I think I connected to Yoruba divination just because I am Yoruba and it feels it feels right and it feels reassuring to know that there are ancestors of mine who have either been able to see things really clearly, not necessarily things in the physical realm or who have been able to bring on certain things or help people in certain ways.
And to know that I can at least find solace in the fact that I can connect it to ancestral knowledge or Yoruba traditional or sacred knowledge.
Michelle: Okay. I didn't know you were Yoruba.
Ayo: I am. I'm Yoruba, I grew up in Ghana. I was going to keep it for the intro.
Michelle: Oh I see, I see, okay.
Ayo: I was born and raised in Ghana. I say a lot of the places that my family is from, just because, to be honest, my family's from a lot of different places and we call a few different places home, but I've never been to Nigeria or Benin, which is where my dad's side of the family kind of is from, but also from Northern Ghana.
But I came to Canada I think in 2013, so I was fourteen. I came here for boarding school, but the rest of my family has had a pretty close relationship with Canada for a while, whether it's going to school here, living here for a bit or for a while. But yeah, so we've all had pretty close relationships with Canada.
Michelle: What part of Ghana did you live?
Ayo: I lived in Accra, I lived in the capital, yeah, and I was born there as well, but we would go up north a lot.
Michelle: Okay, yeah. So do you speak Ga?
Ayo: I do not, I don't speak any Ghanaian languages at all. I don't speak any of my parents languages. I just speak English, French and Spanish. But that's about it. It's something that I wish I did.
Michelle: Do you understand any of the languages?
Ayo: I can't get by in any of my parents’ languages, but there are a few things that I do know and I can recognize the languages right away because they just sound familiar. There are certain words that I can understand, especially in Twi, but I can't navigate a conversation at all.
Michelle: Okay, all right so this is—
Ayo: —a turn.
Michelle: Yeah, it's okay though. For people that don't know too much about divination and specifically what you, I guess, practice what are some of the key beliefs? Are there any key beliefs?
Ayo: This is where I kind of feel like a dummy because I don't know, I'm sure there are some key beliefs, guiding principles, I'm sure. But again, with this just being kind of finding my own footing and trying not to shake things up a little bit too much, I really don't know. I feel like I've delineated a few terms for myself, to be honest.
There was a time where I think my energies were running really high and there were a lot of weird things that were happening and a lot of things that were too, too close to be coincidences. So I was just like, I think I'm at the helm of a few things in my life and I was just able to kind of take over a lot of really important aspects of my life.
And during that time, I think I just came up with a few guiding principles for myself just to make sure that I wasn't doing anything terribly wrong. I've heard stories of family members, not direct family members, like my dad's uncles or cousins. I don't even know because these are just stories that I've heard growing up of just like uncles or relatives that were honestly just trifling and knew that they had power to do things and then would just use it for their own personal gain at the expense of others. I don't think it's necessarily bad to manifest things for your own personal gain.
I think that's the point. But once you're doing it at the expense of other people and disregarding people's livelihoods, then that's when it becomes a problem. So, I mean, these could be folktales, these could be real things. But I think for myself, it's just like making sure that I'm being responsible. I don't really talk to a lot of people about specifics, especially if it concerns them, because I think it's extremely irresponsible to have something arrive at you in a compelling spiritual way and then go and then mess up everybody else's, you know what I mean? Mess up people's lives and tell them weird things that…because to be fair, I try to just be responsible in the sense that if I want to will something to happen, it’s going to be for me.
If I want something to happen, I'm making lists. I'm speaking things out loud. I'm trying to make sure that good things come to me or good things come to other people. I'm never going to wish terrible things to happen to other people. But if I see something or if something comes to me in a really compelling way and I have a feeling that something's gonna happen, I'm not going to run off and tell somebody, “hey, I really, really think that you're going to lose your job” or like “I think something terrible is going to befall you” because then you're just going to mess that person's day up for something that you don't necessarily know is true.
Or there are a lot of mixed messages. And I think as a person who is not tapped into anything at all, I don't even have words to name these things and I haven't had strong, strong, compelling proof of specific things, even though I strongly believe them. I think it's just, It's really important to be responsible. I have had things happen where I had a really strong feeling from I don't know where, like someone wrote it in my brain and I could read that something bad was going to happen, but I didn't know how to articulate it.
Michelle: It seems like you're speaking from the point of like someone who is like a diviner. Is that what you would call you it?
Ayo: Sure…I don’t know…
Michelle: Or like maybe like a medium?
Ayo: No, no. Okay so what it isn't: I mean, I for sure had instances where I'm just like, “yo, I'm talking to somebody who is definitely not alive.” It happened twice, once in a dream, once in real life, in my waking moment where I was just like, “oh, this there's definitely some sort of connection here. Like there's something going on.” And then I've also had, like, very clear vision sometimes are images of myself or other people in spaces. It's not daydreaming because it looks very real, but also kind of like a dream. It's not like I zoned out and then I remembered a scene from a movie.
It's like I've never seen this before, but I know this for sure and it's usually accompanied with a feeling. Or I have situations where I really, really want something and I just make it happen. My dad has always told me that you just treat it like it's already happened and recognize that you are in a space where you're just moving towards that thing.
So you don't think about how you're going to do this or how you're going to make this thing happen. You just behave as though it's already happened. File it in the back of your mind and let other things just take their course. Whether you need to write it down, say it out loud, continue to draw this thing towards you. Just understand that there's a space where that's already happened and you in your current form are just moving towards it.
So I think of it as willing things to happen. However, I just don't think that I have like, a distinct title as someone who can make these things happen. I just feel like I'm not in tune with it, I don't have any knowledge. I feel like in order for me to actually tap into these things, I would have to be guided by someone because I know I have the potential to do it. But it's not something that I'm hoping to look into because it just honestly is kinda scary.
When you're kind of in the throes of it, it can seem fun when good things are happening. But after that, I think that having to be like last summer, I was just like really shaken. I kind of let go a little bit. I was on a high. A lot of things were happening. A lot of things were cool. I was having conversations with my siblings and my dad and stuff like that and it was fine.
And then something bad happens. I didn't really tell people about that because it would have been weird if I had told my family while I was thinking that. It’s not that I don't take it seriously, but I don't take it too seriously until that thing has materialized. Because then I can just be like, okay, deep down inside I knew and I was prepared for this, but I don't want to just signal a false alarm.
I don't wanna cry wolf about something that… basically I just take it as every single time I have strong, compelling feelings, even if I will, something to happen, it doesn't happen. It could be that it hasn't happened yet or it won't happen. But honestly, it's like rolling the dice.
Michelle: I wanna provide like a little, I guess, background or context for our listeners. So I don't know if this is in line with, I guess, your beliefs but I was reading this book. I'm going to put it in the description. I'm losing the name right now.
But it was like an introduction book about the Akan Akom tradition, which is like the spirituality of the Akan people in Ghana. And it was really interesting. It's like a guide kinda intro background thing and the author mentioned that there are three different, I guess, layers or three main components to the Akom tradition. So it's the creator and then you have the spirits and you have the ancestors. And I've read various articles about various African spiritualities and it seems like those three are…at least like the spirits and the ancestors are a big, I guess, big components within the spirituality.
You mentioned spirits, the ancestors and the spirits, are they a central part of your spirituality?
Ayo: In terms of spirits, I think they’re there. And if I wanted to talk to them, I think I could. In terms of ancestors, speaking broadly, same with spirits. They're definitely there. If I wanted to talk to them, I think I could definitely find a way, probably have to ask my dad or something. I’d just have to figure it out.
I don't really know. Honestly, it could be that I don't know who or what is orchestrating all of this, but I definitely hold it close to me that my ancestors are a really big part of anchoring any changes that I wanna make. I think I count a lot of prayers and protections in with this divination or this…maybe I'll call it ultra clarity because I feel like that's kind of what it feels like. It feels like divination. It feels like instead of 20/20 vision, it feels like 100/100 sometimes. It just feels really clear whether it's a vision or a feeling.
I definitely think that one person that I do speak to fairly frequently when I'm asking for things or when I'm hoping for something to happen, whether it's good things for other people or protections or anything, is my grandfather. But that's just also specifically because I can name him and I know him. He passed away about ten years ago now. And so growing up, I had a really strong relationship with him and then after he died, he's definitely made it clear to me that he was around and it felt like a protection thing, not necessarily a really scary like ghost story or instance.
I've never seen him, only in a dream. And even that dream again, like when I was saying that I I've had two instances where I feel like I've spoken to people who are not alive anymore, both of the instances where my grandfather. One time it just felt like he put his hand on my shoulder because I was talking about him and talking about how I felt after he died.
And then another time I was in a dream and it was actually really funny because I was on a school field trip and he just pulled me aside and acted like he was really angry at me. The guide of the field trip was just like, “oh yeah, you have to go because your grandfather's really angry at you. We totally understand.” And it was a really boring field trip and he just pulled me aside because he could tell I was really bored in this dream. And then he just told me a few really important lessons. And then I woke up and then I found out later that the elder that my dad goes to visit in the village, who was really close friends with my grandfather before he died, I heard that he told my dad that my…that that I was like, they didn't know anything about this dream by the way.
We have different time zones. I hadn't spoken to my dad in a while, but he told me after I told him about this dream, I just called him like “yeah, Grandpa visited me in a dream and he was like “when?” I was like “last night,” and he was like, “do you know what time it was?” I was like, “no, I don't know what time it was.” But then we figured it out and apparently, the elder in the village had told my dad to make an offering to my grandfather's grave on my behalf because my grandfather was communicating through him that he wanted to invest a lot of his spiritual energy in me. And so they made this offering and it would have been around the same time that my grandfather visited me in the dream. My dad basically said that it could have been him acknowledging that he'd received something, even though I didn't know that they were giving an offering in my name.
But it just kind of felt like there was more of an opening there. I don't know that I really took advantage of it as much. I don't think it's over. I just think that it felt like a confirmation of a lot of the things that were happening before, because before I just kind of felt really scared of what was going on, excited about good things, but scared mostly. And then after that, I think I chilled out a lot and I was just like you know what, this isn't necessarily a really scary, big, bad thing. It's just something that I can invest my energy in more when I feel like I need it, when I feel like I need guidance.
But yeah, I think the ancestors’ piece is really important for me just because at least to acknowledge that there were people before me who did this, but also who want to see me succeed, and so I would like to think that they're the ones who are helping with this kind of stuff. Once you start believing that it's all you, then I think you get a little bit twisted, you get a little bit messed up.
I think even a lot of mediums, they are exactly that. They're a medium. They're like kind of a vessel. I think whenever there's weird energy in a room, maybe I'm just like, “yo, maybe this is just my experience or my ancestors telling me to get out of here” or maybe there's something going on. Or maybe I'm just like nauseous, you know what I mean? I definitely think that that there are other entities that have even more ultra clarity and who just try to communicate things to you, but when it comes to speaking to ancestors, I'm pretty much directly speaking to my grandfather, also my maternal great grandmother, because I've seen pictures of her.
There are certain elders and ancestors, whether they're related to me or not, like a very close family friend’s grandmother who I kind of picture If I had kind of a roundtable of elders, it's like my grandfather, my maternal great grandmother, this very close friend’s grandmother. I guess the doctor who gave birth to me or something, I don't know, just people who've passed away who I feel like are really connected and really important in my life.
I even have some stones. It's traditional. Every time we go up north to visit my grandfather's grave, you always take a stone with you after the elders have prayed and blessed the space, you take a stone with you, you put your intentions into it and your messages, and then you leave the stone there, because basically, his grave is just kind of a rectangular shape and then there's a bunch of rocks above the gravel. So you leave a stone there and then you take a stone with you.
So I have, I think, two or three from each time that I visited. And if something is really important to me, if I want to feel safer, if I wanna feel protected, if I wanna ask for good things, if I wanna ask for protection for anyone else, I'll usually hold the stone with me or if I need really good luck, I'll take it with me.
Or if I just need to feel comforted because it just makes me feel like I have a connection to my grandfather, who's like, honestly, one of like head honcho ancestors.
Michelle: That sounds really nice, like having something personal of your grandfather and just feeling that he's always there with you. That seems really cool. So in regards to your family, you’ve spoken a bit about your background spirituality, so how was it passed down to you? Was it like a conversation that was had with you or was it something that your family always practiced so just naturally you practiced it?
Ayo: I don't honestly think that there was a very distinct moment where I felt like…I don't think it's like Spider-Man, when you kinda get bitten by a spider and then all of a sudden you're like, “I can talk to spirits” or something. There was never a distinct moment. Honestly, I really don't remember an initial conversation at all. I always knew that there was like I always knew that there was someone that we want to talk to in the village who just knew stuff. I don't think I understood what it was. And I remember my sister kind of briefly talking about Yoruba divination and looking into it more in university and not really knowing that there was a connection to me or my family at all. I just thought it was something that Yoruba people did if they were really chosen.
They were the ones who knew how to speak to ancestors, to see into the future and all that kinda stuff. Now, I know that it's a little bit more nuanced than that. It's not like, “oh, I can literally see into the future.” It's not like That’s So Raven or anything.
Michelle: I love that show.
Ayo: I know it's a great show. I would watch that as a kid and just be like, “you know what, I wish I had visions and then here I am.” But I think the earliest conversation I can remember…
Michelle: You manifested it.
Ayo: Oh, totally. That's it. I definitely wished I was less stupid than Raven in a lot of the situations. I was like, “man, if I could see into the future, I just wouldn't know that it was already set to happen because…” Anyways, I have a long theory about this show, but I think it makes sense for it to have been passed on genetically to me.
But I also don't necessarily think that It's impossible for someone to manifest things unless they had family members who were prone to do this kind of stuff, I think anyone can do it. But I think you just have to believe in it. And it makes it easier to believe in it, to know that this is something that runs in the family, it's much easier to believe and I 100 percent believe it.
Sometimes I'm a little doubtful and maybe that's what stifles it from happening cause my dad has been like, “if you allow any doubt into your mind, it's just going to mess everything up.” So I don't know. Sometimes I'm just like “I don't fully think that I can just manifest anything and it's gonna happen.” But sometimes when there are things within reach or if I'm desperate or if I just put something out there and allow for the time for it to happen, generally it does. There have been a lot of spooky, spooky instances that I’ve told really close friends about or my brother or my dad.
But yeah, there's even things that I'll hear from the elder in the village, that my family knows and goes to, and I'm just like, “that doesn't sound right.” Sometimes I used to get excited and I was just like, “oh, what did he say? Like, is there anything I should know?” I remember my dad telling me once he said “your kid is going to make a big electronics purchase.” And I was like, “what? This is so boring.” I thought I was just like, “am I going to meet Beyonce?” I was just like, what's going to happen?
Am I going to make a million dollars in a day? And it was big electronics purchase. I was like, “I don't have big electronics purchase money, first of all. And I'm not planning on doing that any time soon.”
And then without a doubt, because I live with my brother, I'm not joking, two days later, my brother comes home with a new record player and he's like, “well, this thing is big.” And I was like, “oh, that makes so much sense” and then we got a subwoofer. And I was like, “oh, okay cool.” Like, it was just like that kind of stuff where…you could go up to anyone in the street and be like, “you're going to make a big electronics purchase” and five out of ten of those people are and then the other five aren't.
So if you want to think about it that way, sure. But I also think it's like…it's always worked for me. Whenever this elder has said something, it 100 percent of the time comes true. When it comes to me personally, I'm very inexperienced. Sometimes it doesn't really pan out or I really, really want something to happen and then I realize that it doesn't actually work that way. And sometimes the strongest feelings I have about things just mean that they are going to happen. But it's complicated, I think.
Michelle: You mentioned at the start of the interview that your family is Muslim, right? So do they practice the Yoruba faith in tandem with their Muslim faith?
Ayo: I would really like to think that my lineage precedes Islam. I would like to think of it that way. To think that at least my family's contact with Islam on my dad's side, I would really love to think about this one elder who's really just started at all. Like one of my ancestors who was just like…I don’t know, maybe they got struck by lightning or something and then all of a sudden they were just moving different.
But I think once my family came in contact with Islam, they were…this is all speculation. I would like to think that they were just like, “yeah, we're not letting this go” because it's just how we've always done things. I don't practice any religion. My dad's side is Muslim and my mom's side is Christian. Again, like, my mom doesn't really practice. My dad does more but I don't.
I do know that specifically, the elder in question, he is a Muslim elder and he does a lot of prayers. So he does use the Quran, but he also has a connection to spirituality. So it's like traditional ways of knowing with his religion. He's kind of just blended them together because he feels like that's what works the best for him. And I totally believe that because I mean, I don't practice Islam or Christianity, but I do understand that there are fundamental principles that I believe in as well.
Michelle: So I come from a Christian background and family. I know sometimes people merge the traditional faith along with Christianity, and this is something called syncretism, and I even find that in different diaspora, you find out with different groups where either they've joined in the indigenous spirituality with an Abrahamic religion or they've taken different aspects and kind of made it their own.
So that's something that I think is really interesting that we we do that even though a lot of people may kind of demonize the indigenous faith, it seems like there are still elements, certain elements that they practice. Have you noticed in the way that maybe your family practices their faith?
Ayo: I think I've definitely noticed that, but I don't know that I fully pay attention, to be honest.
I don't want to sound like some ignorant kid, but like, I just know that there are certain things that my family just does, and sometimes I don't know if it's our own traditional beliefs, and sometimes I really don't know if it's like that or Islam. Like some things, obviously, I understand. Like if we're slaughtering a goat and there's a bunch of elders praying and there's a Quran around, I obviously know what that is attributed to but there's certain things that I know that we do that kind of have a little bit of a gray area.
I think our traditional familial relationships with spirituality include divination, to be quite honest, and I also think that that we just have certain beliefs and part of those beliefs are just that like don't discount the fact that our world is entirely separate from spirit worlds. But I think there is definitely a merge that has happened. But we're also just like kind of…we're kind of just a family that just does whatever works for whatever reason.
So we'll celebrate Christmas, not because of Jesus Christ. We’ll celebrate Christmas, we’ll go to the mosque for important holidays, but it's mostly Islam and my dad's family's spiritual beliefs, not because we don't do anything that my mom's family does, but especially just because living in Ghana and living with proximity to my dad's family, it was just something that kind of happened.
Michelle: We've touched a bit on how traditional spirituality, traditional African spirituality is often stigmatized. There's a stigma associated with it in the mainstream, I guess, community, you would say. I mean, I know from my end I've heard things about it being “demonic, bad, evil.” My first introduction was through Nollywood movies when I was a kid and then, you know, they would go to like juju. It was portrayed as this scary thing and I would have nightmares about it and it was just portrayed as this demonic evil thing.
Why do you think there is a stigma? And I know your family practices divination and the traditional Yoruba faith so maybe there isn't as much within your circle, but have you encountered the stigma with anyone? And why do you think this stigma exists?
Ayo: I think the stigma exists largely because of misinformation, but also colonial propaganda. Honestly, I think that a big part of it is when you understand Europe's and Christian Europe's colonial contact with Africa as something that not only happened a long time ago, but is still happening now. I think it's really important to know that a really big part of colonization was demonizing indigenous traditional beliefs because it served it served the colonial agenda.
So I think there's definitely still that stigma now, and I'm not necessarily saying that's the only reason, but that's a very large reason. When you have the threat of demonic possession and death if you don't adhere to Christianity, it does scare a lot of people into stopping there like traditional practice, and it does scare a whole lot of other people into making sure that nobody else does that. So I think I think that a lot of the stigma comes from that.
Part of the other stigma, I don't know, I don't necessarily know where it comes from. I've definitely encountered it before. You know how in North America, there's a lot of like…I don't know how to say this, but there's a lot of people who will embrace certain things and say “witchcraft” so openly. You can’t do that in Ghana really.
You can't just be like “I'm a witch.” And it's not like a good thing. You can say all that. And people would just be like, “are you are you joking?” Like, they'll actually rough you up a little bit if you say that you're a witch, like, that's ridiculous. Like I can walk out and tell somebody that “I'm a witch here” and people just look at you sideways.
But in Ghana, you can say that and actually face serious repercussions because witchcraft and juju and everything is not a joke. There are a lot of people who use these things and use the power to do these things super negatively. And I mean, a lot of people think that the bad things that are happening to them is because someone has put a hex on them or it's because of juju. Sometimes I'm sure it could be, but sometimes it's just like…it's an easy thing to blame bad things on.
So I think colonialism, misinformation and also sometimes you just don't really have an explanation for why your knee hurts that much. So you're going to say that your estranged sister went to the village and told them to hex you because you want to talk about it at a party, you know what I mean?
Like, it's just you want to go to a funeral, and be like “hmm you see this person…” You know what I mean, it's just like stuff. So I think, like when you just consider just Ghana, you're just like “well, are you joking? Like, are you serious?” Sometimes it's just an easy thing to to target. But also, I think it's like it's kind of valid because it gets in the hands of really bad people, but it'll happen a lot less than you expect it to because I don't think it's that pervasive of a problem.
Michelle: You know, when you were speaking, I thought of how even though it's like demonized and there's so much stigma surrounding it, people still really actually believe in those traditional beliefs, even though they may consider themselves another religion or maybe they may consider themselves Christian, for example, but they still really believe in those things.
And when shit hits the fan, they’re gonna cite the traditional beliefs and say, “oh, this is beyisem,” meaning witchcraft you know what I mean? So it's interesting that when there is some sort of incident, a lot of people kind of go back to that traditional….
Ayo: If something good happens, it’s God. It's like “by the grace of God we have overcome…" but if something bad happens “aye juju.” I'm just like like how is that possible? Traditional religions and traditional forms of knowledge have been around for as long as we as a people have been around. And I say “we” but take that however you will, because I mean, there's a lot of ethnic diversity in Ghana, but they’ve been around for forever, but people still, I don't know, discount it when…unless it's something bad it's just weird.
And I think that that's still that colonial mentality that all good things are…I don't want to offend people because maybe good things are through Christ. But like, how come good things can't necessarily be through these traditional religions sometimes like I think it's 100 percent possible, I think that's just because I believe in it.
And I don't necessarily think it's as easy, as “good and bad”, unless someone goes to someone with an intention to curse you or whatever, and then that's good or bad. But I think these traditional religions are there for a reason and they didn't just appear as some sort of demonic ritualistic behaviours.
They have always been there and to demonize them and to paint them with one brush, which unfortunately is what I'm doing, is what colonialism wanted. It was just like, “okay, let's make all these things bad because if you can organize religiously or spiritually on your own, then we're not gonna be able to really conquer you as a people that easily without violence.”
There was violence, but anyways, I won't get into colonialism right now, that's too much.
Michelle: I think you actually touched on this already, but I guess I wanted to focus on this a bit. So there are some people that may paint the traditional indigenous beliefs with a romantic lens. Do you think there are valid critiques and valid reasons why people that originally practiced this tradition moved away from it?
Ayo: I mean, I feel like anything has valid critiques. The only thing that I've experienced where I'm just like, “okay maybe let's not do this” is when people rely solely on, like, certain traditional ways of fixing certain things. I feel like in the time that we live in now, it's really difficult. At the time where they were way more prominent, I think that it made sense to go to your traditional healer if you had a stomach ache or something like that.
We live in a world with, like, so many GMOs and carcinogens and all these things. So when it comes to using that kinda stuff medically, we've just been exposed to so many other things than people used to be that I don't think that it's the only way to fix or heal yourself is like your traditional healer with traditional medicines.
I think that traditional medicines totally work a lot of the time. But I think I'm just curious about the ways in which the world has changed and how much more toxicity is just in our air and stuff like that and how effective a lot of things would be. I think that's the only thing that I would critique because I also don't have a lot of knowledge. So I can't really just…I can't just be like, “oh, well, this is bad for these reasons” because I'm also just honestly, learning and a lot of ways so I can't really speak on it too much, but that's the only thing that I'm really curious about.
Michelle: You’re still a young person and living in Canada, where that is obviously not like the dominant spirituality and stuff. What has your experience been like being a diviner, following Yoruba divination here in Canada?
Ayo: I don't really know, I get really uncomfortable with the title because I just feel like I'm just not. I just feel like I'm just kind of following whatever path I can that feels right. If something feels too much, I will reign it back if it's like I really need guidance I’ll hone into that, or I'll call my dad or ask specific things. But in Canada, it's fine. Honestly, I just don't really talk about it with people a lot because t's not a universal thing.
I'll explain to people at times that there is a tendency for like, I don't know, like…there is such a thing as divination and that it is a cultural thing.
I think that's what I treat it as mostly. Like if anybody asks or if it ever comes up in conversation, which it usually does not, or if I have something relevant to say about it…because I will just avoid talking about it as much. I just honestly say that it's a cultural thing and then people usually are just like, “oh, that's so cool.” And then I change the subject because that's a really good way of making sure that you get to exit a conversation and it's like, “yeah, yeah, it's cultural."
And then you just leave it at that really. That's kind of how I like to do it, because I don't want too many questions. I don’t want people to be like, “do you really believe that you can do this?” And it's just like, “actually, yes. And if you don't move away right now, I'm just going to shoot you with fire out of my eyes or something.”
I just don't want to draw too much attention to it because I don't really know what this is so I don't want to be, again, irresponsible. I also don't want to draw too much attention to myself in that way. In a lot of ways, it's very personal, I think. And there are things that I don't necessarily want to share because half of it is mind your business. Half of it is like I don't want to block my blessings lowkey.
I don't want to become…I don't know, like some sort of like like a weird person, it's like someone runs into me at a party is like, “oh like I heard about this weird thing, like so weird.” I don't know. So I just try to not talk about it that the often outside of my family or really close friends or people I can trust.
Michelle: Aside from your family, do you have a community of maybe people your age, maybe even online, if it's not here, that you can talk to about these things?
Ayo: Not at all, not in the slightest. One, I can't really name it. I have an idea. I can't name it. I would like to say that I'm certain, but who knows? I have one or two friends that have told about these things, that I can share a lot of things with and we had deep connections, but I don't only talk to them about that stuff. It's not like I have a forum or some sort of online community. I don't have really anyone I could talk to about this stuff.
If something really freaky happened, I would text one of my friends who I talk to about the stuff a lot and who feels the same way about things and who has had similar experiences to me, or I'll call my dad or text him about something or just ask if anything has kind of come up, you know what I mean? It's just like one or two people. I don't really talk to my brother about it very often or my siblings, because I know that they don't like to invite that kinda energy too often because they're just like…I know my brother is just scared of it. So he's just like, “I don't know, this is so scary.”
We've had deep conversations about it but I know the boundaries for sure. I'm also not too inquisitive sometimes with my dad. No one has all the answers and it's not cut and dry, it's not a science. It's important to understand that if you have a moment, you have a moment.
And that's kind of how I see it for myself. Because sometimes I'm hopeless, too. Sometimes I'm in school and I'm just like “I'm drowning in work.” And it's not like I can just snap my fingers and just say, “make all my work done.” I still make wishes at 11:11. When it’s a full moon, I'll put energy out there.
I make little notes for myself. I write things down and I fold them up into several pieces and staple them shut and then I don't really open them again because that's kind of like a physical practice. Or what my dad was saying, “just put it out there and let it be there.” I do that sometimes. If I have an eyelash, I'll take it off and I'll make a wish…you know what I mean? I have a list, I have a vision board. It's all sorts of things. It's just kind of like a mix and match for me.
It's whatever works. But it's also nice to know that I have ancestors who have done this and I know that for a fact.
Michelle: Do you have a desire to connect with other people about this?
Ayo: I don't really know that I do have a desire to connect with people about this because I don't think it's..again, I think it's something that's fairly personal. I feel like if I did connect with other people, it’s just like, whatever works for you, works for you. I don't think there's a blueprint.
If something traumatic happened to me, I would love to tell someone about it. Like I would obviously tell a therapist. But when it comes to day-to-day things, I honestly just write it down, be like to myself, “bitch, you will never guess what the fuck happened. Remember that time when you thought…” you know, what I mean? It's just stuff like that. I'll write it in my notes or something.
Michelle: So you're a graphic artist, filmmaker. The divination, does that inform your work as a graphic artist and filmmaker?
Ayo: Not really. Not at all. Honestly, I think if it does, I haven't noticed. But again, I feel like it's something that's just a part of me. To whatever capacity I have, if you consider it a gift, if I have it to any capacity.
It's just innate, it feels like it's just maybe a part of me the same way that just, I don't know, being lactose intolerant is a part of me in that sense. It's like asking, “does lactose intolerance inform my work?” Sure. If I have ice cream, I can't really, you know…I mean it's just certain things like that. But I think whatever gift it is or genetic predisposition to this, I think I haven't noticed maybe.
I think whenever it does influence my work, it's probably after the work is done. I just hope that…or before it starts, not during. It is nice to have clear visions of things, especially making music videos. That's real nice, I think. I don't know that that's connected to it at all. But I think after the work is done is where the manifestation, where it actually comes into play. I hope it reaches a lot of people. I hope it has the desired impact on people. I hope that my work brings me enough recognition to make sure that I can give back to the people who are the most important to me, so like my family.
I think whenever I manifest anything, if it has anything to do with prosperity, it's just so that I can share it. So I think that's the only way that it influences my work, is it kind of keeps me going through it to make sure that I can honestly, just provide. Not that my parents necessarily need me to do it, like I have a pressure, but I just feel like I have an obligation to, especially just being like a Ghanaian kid. You just know that you take care of your parents after they're done taking care of you. There's just an understanding.
Michelle: Well, that was really enlightening. Thank you so much for joining me for this episode. Where can people find you and your work if they wanna connect with you? Is there any social media that you wanna call out or anything like that?
Ayo: Sure. Social media wise, Instagram is honestly the best place because it's where I am most of the time. But it's Ayo. The last name — get a notebook cause it’s long — Tsalithaba, it means “of the mountains" and Ayo means joy, so joy of the mountains. But yeah that's that's the best place to find me, it’s @ayotsalithaba altogether. Don’t be confused by the “d” sound, it’s still Tsalithaba. That’s where you can find me.
***
Michelle: All right, so thank you so much for listening to episode two of Asase Ba. Ayo's information is in the show notes, so check it out there. All right, so if you want to join in on the conversation, use the #AsaseBaPod and use it on Twitter, Instagram, etc. social media and also follow Asase Ba on Twitter @AsaseBaPod.
So this show airs every two weeks, so I will see you in two weeks time for episode three. Thank you so much again. And signing out. Gosh, that was so corny.
[Asase Ba Theme Music }
Episode Notes
Ayo joins Michelle to discuss divination, manifestation, and connecting with ancestors. They also chat about Yoruba divination, stigmas associated with traditional African spirituality, colonial propaganda, religious syncretism as it relates to Islam and Yoruba divination, and much more.
Join in on the conversation! Use the hashtag #AsaseBaPod.
SUPPORT
E-transfer or via PayPal to asasebapod@gmail.com. Thank you so much for your support.
SOCIAL MEDIA
Twitter: https://twitter.com/AsaseBaPod
GUEST
Ayo Tsalithaba (pronouns: they/them) is a visual artist originally from Ghana and Lesotho. Ayo’s primary mediums include digital art, film photography and digital filmmaking. They enjoy exploring issues of identity specifically societal expectations of race, gender and sexuality through their films.
Instagram: http://instagram.com/ayotsalithaba
Twitter: https://twitter.com/ayotsalithaba
Website: https://www.ayotsalithaba.com/
HOST
This podcast is produced, edited and hosted by Ghanaian Canadian Michelle (pronouns: she/her). She is also the creator of the theme music.
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