Asase Ba Podcast - S1E1: A Queer Ghanaian Man's Story
Transcript
[Asase Ba Theme Music]
Michelle: Hello and welcome to Asase Ba, a podcast that honours oral tradition and shines light on Ghanaian culture and stories that are often untold or silenced. I'm your host Michelle, and my pronouns are she and her.
So before you listen to this episode, which is episode one — yaay — the very first episode of season 1, go and check out the minisode that I did. It's like a little introduction just basically about the podcast, why I created it, my inspiration behind it and I also talked briefly about myself.
So if you want a little bit of background information, go and check out that episode and then come back and listen to this one.
So yeah on to this very first episode! I'm super, super excited to release this because it’s been months in the making. So this is officially episode one — yes — and I interview Tawiah McCarthy and Tawiah (pronouns he/him and his) is a Ghanaian-born, Toronto-based theatre artist. He’s a director, performer, writer and creator. And we discussed his experiences as a queer Ghanaian man.
I actually met Tawiah when I saw his play Obaaberima. He wrote, directed, and acted all the characters in the play which is amazing and mind-blowing to watch because it's so good.
This is just a brief description of the play, just so you have an idea because we discuss it briefly in this interview:
Imprisoned in Canada for committing a violent crime, a young man from Ghana tells his cellmates the story on the eve of his release. Although there is great risk in sharing his tale, he must tell it to be truly free. Through storytelling, dance, and live music, Obaaberima chronicles a young African Canadian’s journey across continents, genders, races, and sexualities.
Source: Buddies in Bad Times
As you can tell by the description, it's amazing. The description already had me hooked, like “I got to go watch this play” and of course, it was amazing. It was my first time actually watching a Ghanaian Canadian production, and there's just something amazing about watching your culture, your heritage, and just watching it reflected back to you, or — I don't know if I'm making sense — but just watching that on stage is such an amazing, amazing feeling.
Recognizing yourself, your culture, some experiences, some cultural nuances in a theatrical production, it's such an amazing experience.
And you know, of course, the acting was on point, the writing was on point, the directing was on point, the music, everything was on point. And so I knew I had to connect with Tawiah because he's so talented and I really wanted to talk to him and just get to know him and all of that.
And of course, this play is queer, and it's amazing because prior to that, I had never watched anything like that. And it was such an outstanding performance and I don't even have all the words to describe how it made me feel.
It's just— anyways, I’m kinda blabbing on but in my interview with Tawiah, in addition to talking about his experiences as a queer Ghanaian man, we also talked about him growing up in Ghana as a queer boy, immigrating to Canada at the age of fourteen, his work as a theatre artist, finding work in the theatre world as a Ghanaian immigrant, creating work in order to be seen, the truths he wants to tell the world, his personal relationship with God, finding the language in Twi to describe queerness and so much more.
I mean we honestly could have had a part two because there’s just so much that is to be said. And you know, Tawiah, this conversation — it was so insightful, so much depth, so much candidness, it was just such an amazing interview.
And I can’t wait till you guys hear it as well. So if you want to continue with this conversation, please use the hashtag #AsaseBaPod and follow the podcast @AsaseBaPod on Twitter, just so we can have a conversation, carry it on, away from the podcast and create community, respectfully of course.
I'm super, super excited and without further ado, this is season one, episode one, my interview with Tawiah McCarthy. I hope you enjoy.
***
Michelle: Tawiah, can you introduce yourself?
Tawiah: My name is Tawiah McCarthy, I’m a theatre artist, based here in Toronto. I was born in Ghana, born and raised in Ghana. My practices include playwriting, directing, performing, and creating new work, so devised theatre. I'm a movement director as well and also work as a facilitator for workshops.
Michelle: Alright. So Tawiah, tell me about yourself. How were you like growing up?
Tawiah: Well I come from a big family and I'm the youngest of ten children. So, growing up I had older siblings that were very protective of me which meant I got away with a lot of things. So I was quite bold in some ways. I remember always being very happy. I was an exciting kid – I crossed a few lines here and there, like taking a risk, but it’s because there was always someone — I was a bit of a loudmouth. I got into trouble quite a bit, a bit of a smart mouth, challenging people especially adults when I didn't need to, but then again because I had all the siblings who always stand up for me.
Michelle: How many siblings do you have?
Tawiah: I had seven brothers and two sisters, yeah same parents. I grew up in a home where there were always kids around so there's always laughter — there were always a lot of people around that was the environment. And aside from being home with all these — everyone else around — like at church too, my family was quite involved in the church so we were always involved in something and I was always surrounded by a community aside from my siblings.
Michelle: And you grew up in Ghana?
Tawiah: I grew up in Ghana. I was born in Madina in Accra, but I spent most of my time around North Kaneshi Tesano area in Accra.
Michelle: Okay. I guess you grew up in Ghana. like your early childhood, your adolescence and all that, and that's a time where we're coming into ourselves and all of that. So coming into yourself and your queer identity, what was that like growing up in Ghana?
Tawiah: So most people who are queer will tell you at some point that they’ve always known their whole life that they are queer so there was always this awareness that I wasn't like all the other guys that I spent time with or played with, (my friends). Anyway, there was always something that was a bit odd.
The things I was interested in, how I expressed myself, but I think I didn't really come to the awareness of that until I actually moved to North America, that I was...I guess understanding my queerness to be in who I choose to love.
Because that language didn't really exist for me when I was growing up back home so I knew it was different. I fell for some of the boys that I knew in boarding school in a different way. I guess I was a bit more emotionally invested in some of the friendships, in a way that was slightly different.
I don't know how to explain what that was then but I didn't understand it fully to be a manifestation of my queerness until I came to North America and there was a language around it. So to answer the question: I've always known that I was different. I've always known that there was something that was queer about me, but I didn't have a language around it until I moved to North America.
Michelle: Okay. While you were in school, did you have anyone who you felt like you could connect with, anyone that I guess you could see yourself in, who was similar to you in some way?
Tawiah: Yes, this becomes a bit of a tricky conversation to have right, because as an adult now and now I look back and I go “Oh yes that person and that person” and that's how we got along so well. But someone to look up to... not in that sense.
Like if we're talking about queerness, not in that sense but someone to look up to when it came to like my interest in the arts, there were quite a few people. And I will say they also kind of had their queerness which maybe didn't have to do with sexuality but they also have their own quirkiness, queerness that when you look at the Ghanaian culture or the culture of an all-boys boarding school, made them stand out.
And in some way, I think I was drawn to those people for that particular reason because they weren’t fitting into the boarding school life. They didn't fit in just as much as I didn’t fit in so we in some way kinda drew together in that way.
But as in someone to kind of look up to and going like “oh this person is just like me”, I think during my time in boarding school, again just making sure that I don't impose things onto other people, I don't think there was anyone that kind of did that for me. I did have some intense friendships. Looking back now where I go “oh, I was quite emotionally invested in those friendships,” but I think that's as far as that went. There was a lot of confusion during that time.
Michelle: That is understandable too. You know you're young too and a lot of new emotions and feelings and all that.
Tawiah: Exactly and also I will have to say, whatever it is that I felt then, again coming back to the idea of language, there was nothing there to kind of go “oh this is what's happening to you now”, where other friends will go “this is what I'm going through. I'm hitting puberty, I'm attracted to women and this is how I feel around women.” I wasn't feeling that way around women so there was that manufactured thing but I knew that I was feeling that way around men. But at the same time too, because I wasn't sexually active, it wasn't something that I could like even articulate it to be a legitimate feeling or assessment of myself.
Michelle: You said right before you turned fifteen, you went to Canada to live there, so how was it like moving from Ghana to Canada? You're a teenager and at that age, you're going into high school, what was it like?
Tawiah: So I had moved from a culture where I was part of the majority, into a culture where I was the minority. The minority as in the minority because I had a Ghanaian accent and I dressed differently and I ate different foods and so it was a bit of a culture shock.
I think it also kind of changed me quite a bit. So when I left Ghana and I moved to Canada, I became more introverted after that move. I think that was also a bit of a shock to my family because I was quite outgoing and loud and all of a sudden, everything just kind of closed up.
Because all of a sudden I found myself having to repeat myself all the time. I gained the nickname “Black Ben” when I was there. It was hard, it was really hard because there was no one there that I could identify with within the school.
Trying to make friends was hard and it was a difficult time. In the midst of all that, it was also me kinda figuring out what was going on with me as a teenager, like what was going on, like all this.
Again with the conversation around not having a language around my queerness, it's like all that was also happening around the same time in this new world. So it was difficult. I would say there were times where I kind of just wanted to go back to Ghana like just go back to the life that I knew cause I felt like I was losing a bit of myself. Now I look back and I can articulate what that experience was, but in that moment, it was just hard and that's all I could say. It was just really, really, hard. There was a lot that was going on that I didn't have the words to express.
Michelle: So, you're mentioning that it was difficult being in the new environment, being in BC, we all know how white that is.
Tawiah: YUP and we're talking 1998, 1999.
Michelle: Yeah...hmm.
Tawiah: And we’re a small town too. When I got there, there were two high schools but over the period of time that we were there, it became one high school. All the teenagers in the town went to the same high school, so everyone knew everyone. And it's one of those towns where all the kids kinda grew up together so if you’re new to the town, everyone knows you're new to the town because they've known each other since they went to kindergarten together, like they've known each other for years and years. So it's easy to feel like an outsider there.
Michelle: So when you moved to BC, you moved with your family?
Tawiah: Yes.
Michelle: So were all your siblings there?
Tawiah: No, it wasn't the whole family that moved. So the year gap between my family is pretty huge. I joke around often saying that I was the unexpected one because there are a set of twins that come before I do. Tawiah after twins. By the time we were moving most of my siblings were all around, most of them were already done University some of them were married with kids and stuff like that.
Michelle: You came here from Ghana and there was bullying going on...did you feel like you could speak to your family about how you were feeling and what was going on?
Tawiah: Yeah...no. Yes and no. It depends, like there were a couple of incidents where I kinda had to speak to my older brother about it and he could have stood up for me in those incidents but for most part, it was…because growing up in a Ghanaian family it was different from when I was in Ghana because I was also younger then, but now I would have to be a bit more mature.
No, there was a lot that I couldn't talk to my family about. Growing up in a Ghanaian family there was the idea of toughening up, you need to toughen up which was also something that was said to me quite a bit because growing up I was a bit feminine, so I was constantly reminded about the need to toughen up. Like even the reason why I went to [school I attended in Ghana] was part of an idea of going to an all-boys boarding school will “toughen me up.” So yeah in my head, when we moved here, part of that was like I need to toughen up, like I need to develop a tougher skin. If I'm not gonna do anything about it, at least I'm not gonna cry about it.
So part of my difficulty in talking to my family about it was then it will sound like I'm complaining when I could just toughen up and deal with it. So a part of me was “just deal with it on your own”.
There were a couple of incidents, just a couple that my oldest brother stood up for me and you know when those things kinda happen, they stay with you but those issues kind of happen because he saw it happen in the moment and kind of nipped it in the bud right away, not because I actually went up to him to go “oh this happened to me.”
Michelle: Okay, so did you have an outlet because you’re internalizing everything that's going on and you mentioned you're trying to be tough for your family and based on things that they've told you in the past... it seems like it can cause a lot of internal struggle. So did you feel like you had an outlet to kind of release all of these emotions?
Tawiah: In some ways, the church became an outlet. This is so interesting. I ended up joining the youth group and I actually ended up singing in the worship. So I sang in the worship team for a bit and that was an outlet for me.
I always looked forward to singing. And then in school, I joined the drama club which also became an outlet for me because in my head, I could be whoever I wanted to be in those spaces. Like when I was on stage singing, I felt a little bit untouchable, like no one can touch me then. And then when we were in school during drama club rehearsing for plays and stuff, I could be whatever character I was that wasn't me. That was my understanding of it then, is that whoever I was playing wasn’t me. So I could get away with just escaping. So maybe it wasn't so much of an outlet, as in it was much more of an escape.
Michelle: So, while you're in Canada dealing with all of these things so you're escaping through drama class, through your church, being in the youth choir. At the same time, did you get closer to forming language around your queer identity?
Tawiah: Yes, again high school life. I developed a crush on someone in school. Obviously, made some friends whilst I was in school and I remember this so well: there was this particular girl that I spent a lot of time with who I ended up dating for a period of time. But when we broke up, we still hung out. We became best friends and there was this one particular guy that I was constantly talking about and she went “I think you might have a crush on him.”
I was like “no I don't know what you're talking about” sort of thing. Yeah anyway, she's like “I think you might have a crush on him.”
I'm like “really, yeah okay, yeah maybe I do have a crush on him.” Nothing came of it. I don't even think she knows this but she was the first one to kinda start introducing that language to me, of going “you do know that guys can actually like guys as in more than just friends? That's a thing that happens.”
I was like “oh” but I was also at that state of going it's a Western thing. I will say this: during that time period of me crushing over this particular person, there was one moment I remember so distinctively well, post having the conversation with the friend that I’m talking about where my brother was actually the first person ever to say this to me.
Once we were talking, while driving somewhere and he goes “are you gay?” He actually asked me that question. And I remember going “what, yeah, what, when what...I-I don’t know.”
Because at that point gayness was something that was more like an obroni thing. Also, a part of me felt like it was a bit of a trick question of him kinda asking me to find out what I would say so that he could preach me.
Anyway, so that was my first denial, like avid denial of it “no I'm not, blah blah” but I also feel like he was asking because I had these interests. Like I talked so much about this particular guy and wanting to spend so much time with this particular guy. And now I don't know if I'm answering the question you asked.
Michelle: You have. No, this is great.
Tawiah: But yeah so that was my introduction to forming a language around that. I had a huge crush on him. I actually asked him out on a date and told him that I liked him more than just friends and he politely turned me down, which was heartbreaking for me.
But what also happened was, as any teenager would do, I started posting photos in my room which is not something Ghanaian. It’s culturally Western. They were all images of these movie stars that I admired, but they were all like men and most of the pictures that I was posting in my room were shirtless men so that became an issue at home.
So there was a bit of talking and stuff…well this is turning out to be quite candid Anyway, eventually, the conversation about my homosexuality came up, where I kind of had to confess to my family that I think I might be and coming from the Christian family that I come from, it became more “no you're not”. This is something else that you need to actively fight against.
So I stepped out of the worship leading, because I was dealing with a spiritual battle and it wasn't right for me to be leading worship when I was dealing with that. So upon the advice of some elders, I stepped out of it which was heartbreaking. Looking back now, I wish I hadn't because it created a bit of a drift in my relationship with God. so I stepped out of that and that was the beginning of my active journey to fight against my “demonic” homosexual attacks on my life. Actively. Yeah, and that went on for a while.
Michelle: So, did you have anyone? I know you mentioned your friend, your best friend. Did you have anyone that was in your corner supporting you and affirming your queerness?
Tawiah: Even with the conversation with my friend, because we dated and then the whole crush thing came up...but it also kind of disappeared as quickly as it came. Like that whole “I could be gay” sort of thing disappeared as quickly as it came so I never really came out.
Apart from that crush and all that experience, it was nothing that I ever said to anyone and also I feel like part of my family knowing about that and the reason why I had to have that conversation with my family…another thing that I'll mention, so when I had that encounter with [the guy], when I went out on a date with him and told him “blah blah blah” and he turned me down, he went to tell his friends.
So the next day when we came to school, most of the people in school knew about it, like going “oh Ben Black is gay, Ben Black is gay.” But I hadn't come out so it was something that I could deny, which I actively denied. But then it kind of ended up at home so we ended up having the conversation at home which led to me pulling out of it and blah blah blah blah. That’s what happened. I tried to kinda step out of the closet around that time or figure it out around that time, but I quickly ran back into the closet and locked the door with bolts like literally...yeah.
Michelle: So that is happening while you're in high school?
Tawiah: Yes, so grade 10, 11.
Michelle: Did there come a point where you started to, I guess, accept yourself more?
Tawiah: Not in BC. So we moved to Toronto and in my last year of high school. I made some new friends and amongst them, I met a very great friend of mine who is actually one of my closest friends, he's become like a brother to me now. Jonathan,I joined the school choir and that's how I met him. The music teacher calls him and goes “Jonathan there's this new guy…” I went by Ben then “...Ben in school, can you show him around?”
But Jonathan was the kind of guy who would walk into choir rehearsals which we usually had in the morning around 7:30 AM and be like “good morning!!!!” and in my head, I was going “that guy is a guy you need to avoid.”
Because in my head he read as queer and if there is anyone that was going to get me into trouble, it is probably him. Also knowing that I was also feminine., having been picked on in school so often for being feminine.
But he never gave up because he's been told to kinda show me the ropes so I tried to avoid him and he will always like chase after me like literally “oh let's go” and then we found out that we had the same math class, the same English class and gradually we became like really, really close friends.
And I think in so many ways he is one of the first people in my life who was never judgmental of me. I could always be myself around him. Always. It didn't matter, he would never call me names, like it just didn't matter. I never felt judged by him in any way, shape, or form and I think that was the beginning of our friendship. Like he really did not care.
What he didn't care about is who I loved or how I acted whether I was being feminine, like he really didn't care about that, you meet certain friends where sometimes you do certain things [and they say] “that's so gay, don't do that.”
To him that didn’t matter and I think gradually around him, I started kinda opening up a little bit more. I joined the drama club. I didn't take drama, again avoiding anything that would make me suspect so I didn’t even take art in grade 12. Cause I was here for grade 12. He was in drama class and his drama class was in my free period, so I started auditing his drama club class and that got me into drama so I ended up in drama production and ended up taking drama in OAC cause I did grade 13.
Michelle: So this was before you moved to Toronto?
Tawiah: This is Toronto. I did [grade] 10 and 11 in Merritt, BC. And I did [grade] 12 and OAC [in Toronto]. And in OAC, I joined the drama club and we're encouraged to write journals so I started journaling.
I just started being very candid as in everything that was going on. And so the very first time I used the word gay to describe myself was in my journal. And my drama teacher read it, and then sat down with me and gave me the whole speech about “you know it's okay to be gay” sort of thing. Like well, it's easier for you to say.
Anyway, she was also supportive but all this while I was still dating girls. I wasn't really out, I didn't come out until university.
Michelle: I read your bio of course, and you studied theatre in York. A lot of Ghanaian families, that's not usually the program they would encourage you know what I mean? So what was that like studying theatre as a Ghanaian? How did your parents take that?
Tawiah: I pulled a fast one with that one and so in OAC what happens is you applied to the universities and then the forms come back and you’re supposed to verify them and sign them and send them back again.
So the first schools that I applied to, I didn’t apply to any theatre programs on my first three choices. When the forms came back, so my family who saw only the first draft of the application, did not know that I had applied to theatre because what happened was when the forms came back and I had to verify the schools I applied to, I changed one of them so the only theatre program that I applied to was the one at York University.
I had already applied to university for a program they had called cultural studies. When the forms came back for me to verify, I erased the cultural studies and I changed it to theatre and sent it out without telling anyone in my family that I had done that. And my logic around that was that if God wanted me to do theatre then I would get in, cause it was a long process I had to audition and all that.
So I actually kinda kept it a secret. I did the audition. I did everything and then once I got in, I mentioned it to my family and obviously, when I mentioned it, it came with the whole “how are you going to make money? How are you wasting this opportunity that you had? You could be a lawyer, you could be all these things. I mean like you were brought from Ghana here to be given the opportunity to be whatever you want to be.”
So it was a bit difficult. it took me a while. I actually ended up accepting the cultural studies program and not accepting the theatre program cause I was so nervous and scared, I was freaking out. But then I got a call cause before my application, I met one of the professors, his name is Peter. [I met him] through the Sears drama festival which is a festival that happens.
I met him and we talked about my future and stuff like that and I expressed interest in theatre and he was like “you should apply to York.” And I auditioned and I met him during the audition and then they never heard back from me again after I got into the program. So I got a call going “hey are you still interested” and so I took that to be a sign from God.
I was like “okay, God wants me to do this so I'm doing theatre.” To the dismay of my family yeah. So I went for it. And I went into the first year hoping to double major. That was the agreement. It’s ike “okay you can do it but find something else to do like a Plan B” but the workload got too much for me so I dropped the other major that I was going to pursue.
Michelle: So now you're a theatre artist and I met you through your play Obaaberima and you know it’s a very outstanding play, I enjoyed it so much. We live in Canada, and we don't see too many Ghanaian Canadian productions like these so when I was watching it, I was just so engrossed.
I was so into it, it's just like all the Ghanaian references, everything, it was just an amazing play. So speak to me more about your inspiration for your play Obaaberima. I mean you've discussed your experiences growing up in Ghana, being a queer boy in Ghana and the name-calling and all of that. Did you draw inspiration from your experiences?
Tawiah: I did, yeah. For the most part yes. I got out of school, I left York University. I got out of school thinking I was going to be working, you know and I wasn't getting hired. I wasn't getting hired, like friends will put me in their productions because they knew me sorta thing.
It was even hard to get an agent and most of it had to do with the fact that I had an accent that I couldn't seem to get rid of. Yeah so it was hard to book gigs, it was really, really hard to book gigs. So Obaaberima which was actually my second play, the first play was The Kente Cloth.
Obaaberima was a response to going “if you're not going to hire me I'm going to write my own shit and I'm going to write it to showcase people like me who sound different and who have different narratives than the ones that we’re used to hearing.”
And this is a story that I've told before. Once when I was pitching Obaaberima actually. I was at York University most of the plays that I was reading were like all these Western and North American playwrights, like I wasn't reading any African plays. No one was talking about African artists when I was there but I was in the program and it's a conservatory program, there's only sixteen of us in a class for three years.
So I never felt seen, I never felt represented so part of me starting to create my own work was in response to that, of going there are more people like me that do exist and they need to be seen and their story need to be told. So at the end of the play when I go “I need to be seen” it was actually not just “I need to be seen” as in the character in the play [or] I need to be seen as in Tawiah McCarthy but also I need to be seen on the stages here in Toronto. I need to be seen on these stages because my story is not being told and the stories that are told that are supposed to be representative of me, are not representative of me.
Because my story is as an immigrant, do you know what I mean? My Black experience is different from the North American Black experience as well. Anyway, so Obaaberima was in response to that but also as much as it was in response to the community that's in the theatrical community, the arts community, it was also in response to the Ghanaian community. Of going I exist as a queer man. So Obaaberima in itself as a show, technically is loaded with all these things so I sing, I dance, I move, I speak different languages. I do a lot in that play which is a feat, which is the eagerness of a young artist to be seen.
And I will say that doing Obaaberima opened a lot of doors for me. It was a huge risk. Brandon Healy who was the artistic director of Buddies at that time, took a risk going “I’ll program that show.”
I wasn't a name. No one really knew who I was, aside from those that I went to school with and those who have seen my little production of The Kente Cloth at SummerWorks, no one really knew me. I wasn't someone that you open a season with. Brandon went “you know what we're going to open a season with your show.”
So he opened the season with my show, took a risk and I think that show actually opened a lot of doors because all of a sudden people were like “oh he can actually do all these things.” Yeah, it did open a lot of doors for me cause I ended up travelling with the shows and stuff like that.
But also part of that show, talking about the contents of it, was investigating the idea of a queer African man. For me, the conversation started from figuring out: what would you call a gay man from Ghana?
Because I grew up speaking Twi and from what I know, within the Twi language, all I know that describes gay men in the Twi language are derogatory terms. Like they are all insults, there's nothing that goes “if you say this word, you mean a gay man.”
And to me, a part of that has to do with the fact that the perpetuation of the idea that gayness does not exist within our culture. Which is something that a lot of people will argue about but I will argue against and saying they did exist, they may have served different purposes or their presence might not have been articulated in the passing of history, which was done orally.
And at some point, we choose which ones we want to keep passing on and which ones we don't want to keep passing on but part of it for me was actually giving a name and a face to this queer boy from Ghana.
Michelle: And I love that you brought up language and the importance of having language for queer identities because I feel like that's part of the erasure when there isn't language to describe your identity. And I like that you brought it up and then you mentioned we come from an oral tradition, so there might not necessarily be like a term floating around in books or on the Internet you know about queerness and what it is in Twi language. But have you ever thought of I guess like speaking to elders and seeing if there is that language there?
Tawiah: Have I ever thought? No. I guess part of it also becomes how do you even broach such a conversation with an elder right. I wouldn't even know who to go to, to start the conversation. When I started research, so I did Obaaberima and then we did Black Boys after that which is a conversation about the different kinds of Blackness as in like, same but different conversation.
And part of my journey through that project was investigating where to go to find stories of queers that existed before time. And the only places I could turn to were books. Because when I think of my upbringing, I cannot think of anyone. Again, growing up in a Christian family and I'm talking generations of Christians because my grandfather was a pastor and like do you know what I mean? It's like who within my family can I go to talk to about this? I can't think of anyone. So I go to books. I talk to people, like I have a cousin who works in Ghanaian archives and like “is there anything at all, anything?” And there really isn't nothing there, little things of here and there, that you can kinda piece together so you think of someone like a fetish priest. A fetish priest is a spiritual entity so they tend not to marry or they tend to manifest themselves in whatever way, shape or form so they can fall in love with whoever they want to fall in love with.
But they would not even be considered gay or queer because they are considered to be spiritual entities so they are not human so the idea of gender doesn't really exist for them. So you find things like that in readings or you hear stories about when we had the kingdoms, where during wars like there will be young boys who travel with royalties with the kings and serve as women for them, like little things like that which also kind of feeds into the Roman idea of how homosexuality was then.
So just little things like that but you never find anything concrete. But at the same time, here I am as someone who comes from oral tradition, finding my tradition through books that are written by most of whom don’t even come from the culture I come from, who are translating things that they don’t understand.
As to finding someone to go to, that’s hard. I think it’s a continuous journey that I will continuously be going on, of trying to find some form of relation from the past to be able to kinda name myself and be able to kinda make room for myself within my tradition and that might happen or that might not happen.
But I think what I held on to working on Obaaberima and Black Boys are these little traces of things that I found that made sense to me. So little trace of stories, like little stories about the fetish priest or girly boys, girl boys who kinda served in the army, served as women in the army. So just these little things are the things that I will hold on to as in my place within history. And who knows, maybe later on in the future I might find more out. That’s what I’m holding on to now.
Michelle: So you mentioned before that you were involved in the church as a teenager but then the elders told you to basically leave the church right?
Tawiah: And stop singing.
Michelle: When you told them about who you are, and that caused you to kinda have this struggle with God and your relationship to God. So where are you right now with your relationship to God? Do you feel connected to God? That was also a theme in your play Obaaberima, so where do you stand right now?
Tawiah: I think that when I came to accept who I am, as in my sexuality, it became redefining my relationship with God. I do believe in God. I have a relationship with God, but I wouldn’t define it as a religious one.
I have a personal relationship with God as in I pray and I talk to God. I don’t go to church often, because I think it’s the institution of church itself that I have a hard time with. Because it was the church that didn’t want me to minister anymore because of my sexuality.
So I have redefined my relationship to God, as in my personal relationship to God. I think that’s something that I can never shake from my identity because I grew up in the church so God has such an important place in my life.
That it doesn’t matter what, I can’t seem to shake it out. I get into conflict in some of the relationships that I have, some of the relationships I’ve been in with other men who are not Christian and who are gay. Of going “how are you able to love God like that when the church treats you like that?”
But I think my relationship is not with the church. My relationship is with God. And I try to surround myself with people who believe in God and also who believe that God loves me as much as they love them cause I think it always boils down to that. Even as Christians growing up, when I was more of a practicing, going to church sort of Christian, it was always like “love thy neighbour as thyself” and it's always kind of emulating what Jesus did when he was on Earth right.
Like how he treated people, how he treated the people around them so I think for me, my relationship with God right now is just, yeah it's been redefined and I had to do that to survive because I can't survive in the same way that someone who grew up here who's gay would survive.
Spirituality is so important so every aspect of who I am and part of that redefining of that relationship is that mythological story that I created within Obaaberima about creation.
So I had a conversation with my dad when I went back home, not too long ago after I came out, after Obaaberima, just before Obaaberima went into production cause I needed to kind of have a conversation with my dad about this before the whole world found out and he found out.
And he was explaining how he didn't understand, which was a legit place for him to be, of going “I don't understand how a man can fall in love with another man and want to be with another man because we weren’t created that way.”
His example was that when God created man, he created Adam and knew that Adam needed a woman to keep him company so he created Eve. And he quoted me the Bible and everything but what he did was he pulled out the Bible and started reading it to me and “when God said ‘let’s create man in our own image’ as in God said our own image, let’s create man in our own image.” And I went: “so do you think God is both man and woman in one?”
And he was like “yeah...yes...yes…”
I’m like “well cause if you do think God created man in our own image, then why do you find it hard to believe that a man who is created in the image of God can fall in love with another man who is also created in the image of God?”
“If what God did when he created woman was for companionship, then how is it difficult to believe that all of us in our image of God cannot find companionship with each other?”
But then he brings up the whole idea of giving birth because a man and a man cannot give birth and I go like “no but that's not why God created Eve. He created Eve to become a companion. Giving birth is another gift that came out of it....” Anyway, so out of that conversation I created that to support the idea of the obaaberima, which was my thesis going into that play.
But I think a key thing in that conversation is that we're all created in the image of God and if we are all created in the image of God, then finding companionship with each other, despite gender should not be a reason to push people out. Do you know what I mean? And everyone can come in with their arguments of “oh it says this here and it says this where” but at the same time, the Bible as we know it, was inspired by God, but written by men.
And there are so many contradictions within it and if you're practicing the idea of love, then all we can do is love. You don't have to agree with me, but that doesn't mean you have to treat me any lesser or shut me out or tell me I'm not deserving of God’s love because that's not right.
Michelle: Yupp.
I want to talk about community and connecting with specifically Ghanaians, other Ghanaians that are queer. Have you found a queer Guardian community in Canada?
Tawiah: Do they exist? No, I haven’t. I’ve met a few, like I've met a couple of queer Ghanaians here and there, but I don't think there is a queer Ghanaian community that exists here in Toronto, not that I know of.
So hopefully maybe on this podcast, someone will go “oh yes we do exist.” I would love to, absolutely love to be a part of that community but I think Ghanaians are still struggling with the idea that homosexuality does exist. It’s something that Ghanaians are struggling with so no, I haven't found a community, no.
Michelle: Have you found community elsewhere, maybe not in the city or in Canada but have you tried other avenues to find community?
Tawiah: Yes I have. I think mostly through the theatre community. I keep meeting other people from other places, especially through working at Buddies, I've met so many queer people from other places, not just from Ghana, from other countries in the African diaspora.
From other places, like other continents. There's been a supportive community but not particularly Ghanaian. It's just like a, I guess a universal will be the word to use, but there's a community but it's mainly been in the arts that I have found that community. I think most of my chosen family now, I have obviously my blood family who are also there and supportive, but my chosen family who are supportive of my queerness have come from the arts.
Michelle: On your website, you mentioned that you create works that reflect the truth of society, as it was, is, and could be which I thought was such a gem. So with your work, what kind of truths do you want to explore?
Tawiah: That. That’s exactly what I want to explore.
Reflecting community and society as it was, as in the beginning, as it was in the idea of belonging which was huge then. Like someone meeting someone who says “oh my name is so, so and so and my family's from Tutu or my family is from Larteh or my family is from Cape Coast.” There's always that pride in that sense of identity, of who we are, which seems to be very specific. There's something to be said about that.
What it is, as in now that we live in such an interconnected world, where there are people from everywhere, everywhere. You go to Ghana and there are people from the States who are now Ghanaian now, who speak Twi better than I actually even speak Twi. We’re in such an interconnected world that people are born and raised everywhere around the continents, around the world.
So what it is now is like the idea of knowing that we all come from different places and we have different stories and there's not one narrative that we all fit into. So celebrating the individual within the collective intercultural world that we’re creating or that we’re living now. So that is the world as we know now.
The world that could be is that place where we're going to get to where the idea for me in my work of doing Shakespeare or having someone play Romeo who's not a white man, who speaks with a British accent. Like Romeo can be someone who's from Togo who has a West African accent. Do you know what I mean?
And Juliet can be someone from China who has a Chinese accent right, like that is the world we’re heading to because accents now are not even a thing. Like my accent right now is not particularly a Ghanaian English accent, it’s a combination of all the experiences I've had so far, which is growing up in Ghana, being taught English, which is the Queen’s language.
So particularly, the British English dialect and then moving to North America and picking up a bit of the Canadian sensibilities around it, so how do you really place me now? Like if you hear my voice on a recording, how would you immediately place me?
A Ghanaian will go “oh that's a Ghanaian”, a British person “oh he sounds a little bit British here but he also sounds a bit African here. And he sounds a bit…” And I think that's the world we're living in now, where you meet people who because of language and what language is doing and what travel is doing, we're kinda moving in and about, in a world that's connected.
So I think part of the conversation in creating work that reflects what was, what is, and what is to come is the idea of realizing that we're getting into a space where our cultures are merging. But even to be able to kind of intersect these worlds together, you have to have an understanding of what these cultures are.
I can’t talk about Ghana without knowing what Ghana is or having an experience about Ghana. Do you know what I mean? I can't talk about Canada without having an experience about Canada so we’re getting to that place where we need to kinda start understanding each other and learning about each other's culture.
And the only way we can learn about each other's culture is to be actively interested and invested in these cultures. I try as much as possible, I use as my mandate is that my interest is to create intercultural work. So a blend of my experience as in growing up in Ghana and watching shows at the University of Ghana, so being introduced to Soyinka or Ama Atta Aidoo and her work.
The idea of storytelling, like watching shows like By the Fireside, which is all about storytelling which is a combination of dance and music and like all that. How do I merge that tradition which is in my blood, embedded in me, with these things that I've learned here in North America because that's my truth.
So my interest is kind of merging those cultures together because that speaks to my truth and I think in creating work that does that, it speaks to the truth of others who come into the room, right.
So someone else who's not probably in the theatre whom maybe has family, example you will come into the room and go “oh that story speaks to me, right it speaks to my Canadian and Ghanaian identity” because those cultures have been merged together, have intersected somehow and in some way, I feel seen, right.
And that's where we're at and that's the work that I am interested in creating so I'm always going back, Like every piece that I've written so far has Ghanaian cultural practices embedded in them. Like, it was in The Kente Cloth, the title itself, Obaaberima itself, it's in that.
In Black Boys, the character I played speaks Twi. And some of these identities are always in conflict with each other, but I also feel like we live as people in this interconnected society, we’re always sometimes and often, in conflict with our identities.
And our beliefs are constantly in conflict with each other and we live with them, that conflict right. Like when I say I'm Ghanaian and I'm queer, most people ask “how can you be a Ghanaian and queer?” That's a conflict because again, no language around that like, that's a Western thing so there's a conflict that exists there. Or even if I say I'm a Christian but I'm also a homosexual, like there's a conflict within that to some. Do you know what I mean?
But we all exist within the conflicts of identity, the intersections of them. Maybe conflicts is not the right word, but that intersection is where we exist and so for me, it's a constant investigation of how do I create work that's intercultural? And for me, intercultural is like just being actively invested in the cultures of others and not just in what you write, but also in their practice of creating art.
Like what is their practice like because thinking that the Eurocentric way of creating is the only way that there is to create is wrong. It's absolutely wrong. We've come to the place of learning that people learn differently then why is it hard for artists to also know that art is created differently because art comes from culture.
You can't separate the two, you can never separate the two. And they serve each other. I think art should always reflect its community, it should reflect the community in which it's created from. Like you can't create it and have it be outside of the community because it's supposed to serve the community.
And now when you look at Toronto, what the climate of Toronto is like, that people from all over the world you walk down the street and you hear different languages spoken so why are we not creating work that reflects that? Why are we still doing work that speaks to a particular section and that's what I work against.
But I can only speak in my truth and I'm hoping that with my experience, as I keep developing as an artist, I'll be able to acquire and be able to create work that's not just limited to my Ghanaian experience but also kind of maybe able to speak to...like I love Soyinka and I'm always investigating his work and I love Nigerian culture so I’m always investigating.
Like the Nigerian and the Ghanaian culture are so similar in many ways so it's easier for me to kind of go into it, but also create work that kinda brings in other cultures aside from mine.
But I feel like at the moment I'm in the place where I can't speak to other cultures because I don't have the experiential knowledge of those cultures aside from the intellectual and I think there's something to happen the experiential knowledge of it.
Michelle: Beautiful answer and it’s so important to see ourselves within our work. I mean there isn't one singular Ghanaian experience. What I want to see is like seeing different, a variety of experiences within the Ghanaian community. And it's great to see your work and what you're doing and all that in the theatre world and I think it's so great.
You're such a great artist and just watching your plays, they’re amazing and I can't wait to see more of your work and what you have coming up soon. So before we wrap up, do you have anything you wanna say, like do you have maybe any advice for any gay Ghanaian boys or men, coming into their own. Do you have any words of wisdom?
Tawiah: I think the biggest thing I will say is that you're not alone. Yeah, I think that's the biggest thing that I will say. It’s that you're not alone. I’ll repeat it again: you're not alone. Because it might feel like it, you might feel like you need to kinda do away with your Ghanaian-isms or your Ghanaian identity to be able to be your true self, but you don't need to do that.
Being queer does not take away the fact that you're Ghanaian and if you ever need someone to talk to, you can reach out to me on the social medias and all that. But just know that you're not alone and also I know this is said over and over again, but it does get better, it really does get better. It’s difficult in the beginning, when you feel like everything about you is wrong, but it does get better so you just need to remember that you’re not alone and it will get better.
Michelle: Where can people find you on the web and social media. Anything you wanna plug?
Tawiah: So yeah on Instagram I go by @teemccarthy. On Twitter, I’m Tawiah McCarthy. I have a website, again tawiahmacharthy.com. On Facebook, I go by Ben-Eben Kwabena Tawiah Mfoafo-M'Carthy which is my full name.
As mentioned, I work as a playwright so if you want to check out my work, I’ve done some work at Buddies and I have a play coming up. Another play coming that also centers around the Ghanaian family--yay yay--called Our Daughters, which we’re doing a workshop of at Canadian Stage, where I'm doing a residency at this season.
Michelle: Thank you so much for your time Tawiah. So many gems. Thank you for sharing your experience and your story.
Tawiah: Thanks for having me. It’s been a pleasure. I was excited to do this.
Michelle: Yes, me too.
Tawiah: I was really excited to do this. I think it’s important…again, the conversation around visibility, I think we have that conversation when it comes to race, but we don’t have that conversation when it comes to sexuality especially within our community. So we do wanna see more Ghanaian stories, which is great.
But also, I feel like even in asking me what I want to say to young queer Ghanaians, it is like they do need to be seen and it is not just queer Ghanaians, it’s actually queer Africans for me in general. There needs to be more visibility around that. And not just even Africans, I’m talking about all the underrepresented races and ethnicities, like more of those. More stories around that.
We’ve had enough of stories like Call Me By Your Name, which is so Eurocentric. We’ve had enough stories about the white queer experience and I think that’s what keeps perpetuating the idea that queerness is a Western ideology is because no one is talking about queerness within our diaspora. So I think a bigger part of it is visibility and representation but gradually we’re getting there.
Michelle: Yes.
***
Michelle Well thank you very much for listening to the very first episode of season one. And didn't I tell you that the interview is amazing? It’s amazing. Anyways, Tawiah’s info is in the show notes so check it out there. And if you wanna continue the conversation, let me know you’re listening, use the hashtag #AsaseBaPod and also follow the podcast page on Twitter. Also feel free to email asasebapod@gmail.com for feedback, commentary, etc.
So this show airs every two weeks. And there are five total episodes in season 1. So you just listened to episode 1 of 5. So see you in two weeks. Bye!
[Asase Ba Theme Music]
Episode Notes
Theatre artist Tawiah joins Michelle to discuss his experiences as a queer Ghanaian man, growing up in Ghana as a queer boy, immigrating to Canada at the age of 14, his work as a theatre artist, finding work in the theatre world as a Ghanaian immigrant, creating work in order to be seen , truths he wants to tell the world, his personal relationship with God, finding language in Twi to describe queerness and much more.
Join in on the conversation! Use the hashtag #AsaseBaPod.
SUPPORT
E-transfer or via PayPal to asasebapod@gmail.com. Thank you so much for your support.
SOCIAL MEDIA
Twitter: https://twitter.com/AsaseBaPod
GUEST
Tawiah (pronouns: he/him/his) is a Ghanaian-born, Toronto-based theatre artist. He’s also a director, performer, writer, and creator.
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/teemcarthy/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/TawiahMcarthy
Website: https://tawiahmcarthy.com/
Play mentioned: Obaaberima
HOST
This podcast is produced, edited and hosted by Ghanaian Canadian Michelle (pronouns: she/her). She is also the creator of the theme music.
#ghanaian #ghana #podcast #african #africa #culture #ghanaianpodcast #africanpodcast #queer #lgbt