Asase Ba Podcast - S1E3: A Queer Ghanaian Woman's Story
Transcript
[Asase Ba Theme Music]
Michelle: Hello and welcome to Asase Ba, a podcast that honours oral tradition and shines light on Ghanaian culture and stories that are often untold or silenced. I'm your host Michelle, and my pronouns are she and her. So yes, welcome to episode three of Asase Ba. Thank you to everyone that has supported the podcast. Thank you to everyone that has liked, retweeted, commented on different episodes.
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So on to episode three. Super, super excited. Every episode is super exciting and produced by myself and I'm having all these really great conversations with different people, interviewing different people about their Ghanaian stories and each episode, I'm always so excited to release it. I'm like, “oh, you know, people are going to really appreciate this. Some people will relate to this certain thing.”
It's just I stan this podcast. Everyone that I've interviewed is just so raw and candid and honest and just really…it's just really exciting to finally release these episodes. And with that said, episode three…you'll hear how great it is.
But in this episode, I interview Olivia and Olivia's pronouns are she and her. And Olivia is a makeup artist and writer. And in this episode, she talks about her experiences as a queer Ghanaian woman. And during my conversation with Olivia, we also discussed bisexuality, biphobia, the nuances of having a romantic and or sexual attraction towards women, her relationship to church, redefining her relationship with God, publishing authentic work while not out, dating when living with family, writing as a distressing outlet, sexual health and safety and so, so much more.
Olivia was just so candid and just raw and honest. And I really, really appreciate her being on Asase Ba and giving this interview. So with that being said, here goes. I mean, this is a great interview that once again needs to be heard and discussed, just like the other episodes.
So, yes, I mean, I don't even know what to say. But anyways, I just really, really love this interview and I really appreciate it. It will resonate with a lot of people as well. So here goes. This is episode three of Asase Ba.
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Michelle: Today I have Olivia with me. Olivia is a writer and makeup artist. Olivia, thank you again for recording this interview again. There were some technical difficulties, but thank you for coming through.
Olivia: Well, thank you so much for having me again. Yeah. Makeup artist, lover, doer, creator and writer. I live in Canada.
Michelle: So today we're gonna be talking about being a queer Ghanaian woman.
When you were growing up, were you cognizant of your queerness?
Olivia: I think there are aspects…like there are certain moments that were curious to me, but I don't think I ever gave myself that label. I don't think I was even aware that that was a label to give myself until I guess late elementary, early high school. But even then, I didn't realize that I should. That I would identify as that way.
There were moments in my childhood where I would fantasize about same-gendered folks and I guess fantasy sounds like a really adult word. I don't know what other word would describe it, but I remember not knowing why I was having those feelings or those thoughts, but also not really wanting them to change.
Michelle: So what was your situation growing up? You were kind of in the know about how you were feeling, like having the thoughts towards same-gendered folks, but not really understanding that. Do you think that's just because you were, you know, younger or because of the environment you grew up in?
Olivia: I definitely feel like it was the environment, it was being Ghanaian. But also, I really…I don't know, and I could just be speaking from my experience, I don't know if that was really a conversation that was being had back then, the way it is now. But it definitely was never a conversation in my household or even in my church, within my community. So I don't even think I was aware, as naive as this might sound, that being gay or being queer wasn't even really a thing that one could be until like experiences with other people from other backgrounds.
Michelle: So what was the, I guess, perception of queerness within your family and within church? You mentioned those two communities and they’re like prime agents of socialization and stuff like that. So what was the perception there?
Olivia: Once it was talked about. It wasn’t ever like a formal discussion, it was more of like comments you would hear as you're watching CP24 and pride comes on. Just it's homophobic and transphobic and everything-that-isn't-within-our-cultural-limitations-and-borders phobic. Like, if it's not of us, then it's strange and it's weird and it's not really what we do. But there are so many of us that are just living in secrecy and I don't mean that in a negative way. Because of the way that it's perceived, it's really hard to come out and to express yourself and to own who you are and to be openly proud of that.
Michelle: Yeah, I totally, totally get that. So when did you I guess start to come into awareness, a deeper understanding of your queerness?
Olivia: I think it was university because that was the first time I was away from home. I didn't go to school in the same place that I grew up in. So I was able to explore who I am and what it is to be Olivia without her family nearby to offer their input. Yeah, it was more of like a sexual introduction or desire, which made it feel like more okay, because that was around the time when people were talking about threesomes and like women were expressing…I don't even…it was more of like threesomes that would pleasure the male gaze. But within that context, it felt okay to be like, “okay, like I'd be down to experience that.” And then it was a little later or much later that I realized it was also romantic.
And it took a really long time to figure that out, and I think there was just so much unlearning that had to be done before I could recognize that.
Michelle: And we've discussed this pre-interview too, how some folks have a sexual attraction (it is legitimate too) towards a gender, but not romantic. But sometimes it seems like it's due to the conceptualization of queer women in the media and it's deemed as sexy towards straight man. So that's kind of the arena that it's viewed in, like it's okay if it's sex because it's pleasuring the male gaze. But I do want to say that it's valid because there are people that are like, let's say bisexual and homoromantic etc.
But we're talking about something else. Why do you think that it took you longer to see the possibility of having a romantic connection with women?
Olivia: Coming with the questions…it was probably just not even recognizing within myself that that could be a possibility like it really feels like you're not allowed to do anything that is against our parents or our elders or our community. And I don't know, that could just be my background, but I feel like because we're such a collectivist culture and we relate so much to what the other members of our community are doing, you really consider that with every aspect of who you are and what you do.
So it felt like it would be okay for other people, and I totally respect and even admire people who could come out and say “I'm gay”, but it felt like it wasn't something that I could do. And I think that that was just repression, like Freudian deep repression. And denial.
Michelle: Yeah, like also I listen to a podcast called Tea with Queen and J and they mentioned image activism, where when you see someone who is kind of a representative of yourself, then it's easier to imagine the possibilities of what you can achieve, what you can do, etc. Tea with Queen and J is a great podcast, by the way. I will link to the episode in the show notes.
In media, you don't really see that too often, where women are shown in a romantic relationship with one another, so it's hard to imagine that sometimes. Do you feel that in addition to, I guess, the non-support and the homophobia in your network, do you think that impacted that situation, how you viewed romance with women earlier on when you started exploring or started having knowledge of your queerness?
Olivia: Definitely. I think even recently someone was saying that we're now starting to see more normalized depictions of gay men but what does that mean for us as women? Everything is still very much sexualized and for the male gaze. I don't recall ever seeing a lesbian relationship that wasn't just sexual. It's only recently that…there is one soap opera I watched that there's a romantic relationship between two women and it's very, very PG. If you look at the hetero relationships in that show, in comparison to this queer lesbian relationship, they're just not really comparable and not really realistic. It's great that the representation is there, finally, but even now, I think that that's still a barrier that we're facing.
Michelle: Pre-interview, you mentioned that you were almost afraid to identify as queer because you had a fear that people would perceive you as jumping on the bandwagon. Why did you feel that way?
Olivia: There are so many like movements, I guess, that are happening right now and I think right now, within our society, within social media, it's very hard to recognize whether someone's intentions or whether what someone is saying is true and not just something they're saying to be a part of the conversation. And I guess that was a part of my fear, as well as knowing that most Ghanaians would probably say it's because you've been brofo-lized.
Michelle: I love the Twi and English mixed together.
Olivia: Like you’ve just been living with the white man for too long. And, like, that's all part of it. You really start to think about all the different things that other people are going to say and you don't tap into how you feel or what you feel and that was my concern. It no longer is anymore because I know myself.
Michelle: Yes, yes.
So brofo-lized. I've heard some Ghanaian people say homosexuality or any type of queerness is not something that's natural to Ghanaians or Africans oh it's a “mrofo fuo thing. It's a white people type of thing.” So when you hear those things, how did that make you feel back in the day? I mean, I'm sure it didn't feel that great, but can you speak to that?
Olivia: It just feels really confusing, like one aspect of my identity now cancels out everything that I've known since I was born. Like Ghanaian pride is so real, and you almost, at least for me, you almost don't want to even use that label because it's like you're scared that you're gonna lose the label of being Ghanaian. It's like the two cannot coexist. Or at least that's what I think some people would like you to believe. Definitely is not the case, doesn't have to be the case if you so choose. There's definitely a community of Ghanaian queer folks out here and in the world.
Michelle: Yes, definitely. Before I wanted to explore community, because you brought up a point of “there are Ghanaian folks out there.” But before I get into that, you mentioned pre-interview that you are bisexual. And, you know, you also just mentioned the idea of people perceiving you as jumping on a bandwagon. Do you feel like that has any relation to being bisexual specifically?
Olivia: I guess to a degree, like I know there's a whole conversation about bisexuality and whether it's real or valid, which it completely is, by the way. And understanding that people like often, if they see a woman with a woman, then that means that they're only into women and if they break up and they go back to a man, then it's like “you were never really gay, you were just I guess playing around or testing.” And that's like another fear. There are a lot of things that I think I took for granted when I was in heterosexual relationships.
If, for example, I went and told my parents that I was dating a woman and then we broke up and then I went to date a man, it would just look like I was just a fool, like I was just like…I didn't know any better and my relationship was completely invalid. And it's like you can move on or move into something and still have gained something from a previous experience.
Michelle: Yeah, I totally get that. With biphobia, some people don't see bisexuality as like valid or legitimate or they don't take it seriously, so there's definitely that issue.
Going back to community, you mentioned the start of the interview that you were involved with your church or you went to church. How do you feel about church and your queerness? I know in a lot of Ghanaian churches, you know, people are homophobic, like there are a lot of homophobic sermons and all of that. So what is your relationship to church right now?
Olivia: It's pretty non existent. The God I was introduced to had a ton of rules, and amongst those rules was to not be gay. And I still don't know if that is like God's actual rule or just the people who told me that it was his rule. So it's very sticky to go to church, the sermons don't help obviously. When the priest is talking about how “Western culture will have you believing that gay marriage is okay when it's not” and you're sitting in the pews and like praying that no one can see, like the gay sign printed on your forehead plague.
It's very uncomfortable. And being around aunts and uncles who have known you forever, but wondering if when you do come out, whether they'll accept you and it's like, I don't understand how that's church behavior, but okay.
Yeah, I think my relationship with God has to become very personalized. And just more…I guess not introspective, but, more reflective of my authentic connection with God and not with the community or the culture that introduced me to him, because the community or culture that has introduced me to him is homophobic. So within that context, like it's just isn't gonna work.
Michelle: How do you find community? Do you have a queer community that….do you know queer people that you can talk to about all of these feelings?
Olivia: I don't have a Ghanaian queer community, which I think is crucial right now. it's kind of hard to talk about the intersectionality of these issues with people who don't share that same background, and I think that that's where a lot of confusion and individual suffering I guess, can come from. I have other queer folks that I can speak to on on other issues and on other experiences, but I really wanna develop more of a network with Ghanaian queer folks. Outside of social media, It's kind of hard in-person because a lot of people don't really want to talk about it, understandably so.
Michelle: What does it look like today dating as a queer woman?
Olivia: It looks like secrecy. It looks like hiding. It looks like freedom. And just like finally embracing who I am, romantically speaking. As well as learning what it is to have a healthy relationship, I think part of that is being true to who you are and being true to your needs. And I couldn't have done that before, blocking like this whole other aspect of me. So, yeah, and the relationship itself, it's great, but it's also a little trying, especially getting to the age where everyone wants to know where your boyfriend is and what marriage is looking like for you.
Michelle: So what do you do, what do you say when those questions come up? Like how do you navigate that?
Olivia: Just avert eyes and laugh and just pray that the moment will be over. Like there's really nothing else. I had a church experience recently where my aunt was asking if I was just hiding my boyfriend and I just had to nod and say, “yes.” Like there's nothing else you can really do.
Michelle: And speaking of hiding and secrecy, you mentioned pre-interview, you live with your family. So how do you navigate dating and being in a relationship while living with your family and who you mentioned you're not out to?
Olivia: There was a tweet recently that said something along the lines of “how are my daughters of first generation families doing in terms of being who they want to be and having to maintain a life of secrecy?”
Michelle: Oh girl, I saw that too!
Olivia: And they weren’t talking about queerness, but that's literally exactly what it is. Sometimes it sucks because you're so happy, but you can't share that happiness, at least not yet. It doesn't feel safe to do so at home. It feels like you're gonna have to go to very extreme extents to be able to come out. On the more like sad spectrum, I went to an event a couple of years ago that was talking about the experiences of Black queer folks and there is someone who is East African who was saying “as easy as it sometimes may feel for white queer folks or non people of color to talk about their experiences, for some of us it literally will mean death.”
And that sounds really dramatic, but that's literally the experience or like the reality that a lot of people have to deal with. And I don't necessarily think that that's my reality but it would definitely be a very dramatic episode, very emotionally taxing. And it's just a lot.
Michelle: Yeah and I can imagine like the tension and the pressure and the stress that, you know, that might put you in, dealing with all that. The secrecy and then feeling like you have to hide a part of yourself and or your life from your family. What do you do to de-stress and do you have an outlet for de-stressing?
Olivia: I would say art, getting out into nature. I haven't been writing as much lately, and that's probably why I'm so stressed out now that I think about it. Yeah, writing, getting out in nature and makeup. Just anything creative, anything where I can use my imagination and kind of disconnect from reality.
Michelle: Yes, definitely. Like writing…do you journal?
Olivia: Yeah.
Michelle: I totally get what you mean because…I noticed, like for me, when I don't journal, and I haven't done that in a while, I feel some type of way and I'm more chaotic, like internally. And when I do journal, I feel more at ease and just more like I'm able to unwind what is going on in my mind, in my head, you know? Do you relate to that?
Olivia: That makes a lot of sense. I think often my thoughts are going a mile a minute and I can think of them, but I can't really process what it is that I'm thinking. So when I write them down, I have to take a moment to really look at what I'm saying and I often, like, reread things as I write. So it's like stepping away from your thoughts and just looking at it from the outside which gives you a whole different perspective and deeper understanding, so I relate to that.
Michelle: Yeah, for sure. I love that introspective work, the reflection and stuff, that's so helpful.
And you are a writer. And in terms of, you know, putting your work out there, is it informed by your queerness? Do you speak about being queer? Since you're not out to your family, when you publish your work, your writing and all that, do you talk about being queer? Is it in your work?
Olivia: It's something I want to do, but I'm kind of hesitant to. I'm just not sure how it'll be received, but it's like I'm only considering the very limited scope of Ghanaian-ness, and not the potential impact that can have on the world, as grandiose as that may seem. Yeah, I think I'm veering towards being more open and authentic to who I am and not caring so much about what other people think, but it is something I consider and go back and forth on.
Michelle: And I can imagine that kind of…negotiating, that kind of stifling your creativity a bit or just kind of…yeah I guess just stifling your creativity a bit and just like ”am I saying what I really want to say?” Do you ever feel that way, when you're negotiating between “oh should I, you know, put my all into this and write from within, like encompassing all my identities and how I feel and my experiences?”
Olivia: Yeah, definitely, I'm going through a personal journey process right now of even like unpacking childhood experiences and how I relate to other people and especially in the context of relationships or even self-esteem. And I feel like I have to just move as far away from all of that to get into the space of writing about queer experiences. Like I have to move away from the reality or the fear of being outed or being found out or being ridiculed before I can allow myself to get in that space so it takes a process and writing is already very emotional sometimes.
Michelle: So let's talk about representation. Do you listen or watch or are there any queer media that you really enjoy, that really speaks to you?
Olivia: Lipstick Queers on Instagram. They are two lesbian makeup artists in a relationship, in a marriage, and they're very open about their relationships and about redirecting the narrative around lesbian relationships and taking it away from being for the male gaze. So they mean a lot to me. King Mali Magic is another makeup artist, she's Nigerian and she's also in a marriage with a woman. She doesn't talk as much about it, but just knowing that that exists and that she's open and that they have this beautiful family, like, it's very reassuring. Yeah, those are probably the two I look to the most.
Michelle: Nice. And finally: what would you say to another queer Ghanaian woman who is, you know, finding herself or coming into her queerness? What kind of words of wisdom would you like to say to them?
Olivia: It's nothing to be ashamed about. It’s something that you can also be proud of. And you can be Ghanaian and queer and still find love.
Michelle: Awesome, and that was nice and succinct.
Do you have anything that you wanna mention that wasn't covered or anything else to say? Any last words?
Olivia: I'm trying to make everything taken more seriously, I guess, by not mentioning so much of the sexual aspect of it, because for so long, women in relationships have been like primarily focused on the sexual aspect. Like if you talk about it, then it kind of minimizes the validity of the relationships. But I just don't want people to believe that it's somehow, I guess less enjoyable than with…actually, no, forget about it, I don’t wanna talk about it.
I want to be, like, respectful of people’s like…I don't know, some people are more vanilla, you know, and I just don't want to make people uncomfortable. But I feel like it's something that we need to talk about.
Michelle: Yeah, for sure! If you wanna talk about it, talk about it.
Olivia: I don't know, I feel like I need a question or a prompt.
Michelle: So sometimes when, you know, folks are speaking about…like we're speaking about identities and stuff like that, it can become kind of surface level, when I guess the folks asking the questions are maybe not part of the group or if you're constantly being asked 101 questions. Is there anything that, if you wanted to get deeper into being queer or maybe like, being in a queer relationship, what are some things that you would wanna discuss?
Olivia: Probably sexual health and safety. That's another thing I think a lot of people are talking about now, is the lack of sexual education for women's reproductive systems and…like, often times people like to reduce woman on woman sex by saying, “well, because they're women, they obviously know what to do and what feels good”, which isn't always the case, and I just feel like we need to be more open about talking about what can happen and what cannot happen. For example, there's a really great online YouTube series called Stud Talk and Femme Talk and it's just about the experiences of queer folks in Toronto.
And sometimes they talk about the sexual aspect. Sometimes they talk about the relationship aspects. I don't know if this is just within, again, the context of Ghanaian culture, but homosexual relationships seem to be placed on a different spectrum, like the same issues that heteronormative people deal with, that we can't deal with, and it's all very much the same. It's just different in the person that you're engaging with.
Michelle: Are there any specific topics in sexual health and within sexuality at large that you think people should know or you that you think should be discussed more?
Olivia: Probably just sexually transmitted diseases and being safe and what that looks like. And I know like with my partner, we got tested before doing anything and like, it seems awkward, but…and not even to further give any evidence to the narrative that homosexual relationships are more likely to contract anything, just in general and in any relationship as an adult, you really want to know medically what's going on.
Michelle: Yes, testing is definitely important. Yeah, I don't think I need to say more about that.
Is there anything else that you would like to address within either the sexual health or sexuality realm of things? Because it sounded like you wanted to say something but…
Olivia: Just that it looks different for everyone, like there are different places on the spectrum, there are different things. Like I remember there was a period where a lot of women were kind of saying that it'd be fine if a woman gave them head, but they wouldn't give them head, and I think that that discomfort comes from people just pretending or acting like the vagina is somehow dirtier than a penis, which is completely inaccurate even if you look at it from even a slight scientific basis. There are like women who engage in oral sex with a variety of women and still don't identify as gay, which could or could not be some form of denial.
I think that you shouldn't allow other people's beliefs to prevent you from enjoying or experiencing something that you deep down know that you want. And if you do experience something that you deep down know that you want, don't somehow minimize the other person in the experience. Just take it as what it is and just go for it.
Michelle: Awesome, awesome. Thank you so much for this lovely interview. I guess we kind of did a final thoughts and we kinda went deeper into other conversations. But, you know, this is very informative. It’s great to have representation for queer Ghanaian folks.
So where can people read your work if they wanna…you know, you’re a writer, wanna see what you're writing, and all of that. Where can people read your work or find you on the Internets?
Olivia: Well thank you for having me again. You can find my work at sizygee.com.
Michelle: Alright, thank you so much, Olivia, and the website’s gonna be in the show notes below.
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Michelle: Thank you so much for listening to episode three. Wasn't it awesome? So this was episode three out of five. So I'm super excited for y'all to listen to the final two episodes of season one. More great conversations with really cool people.
Olivia's website is in the show notes so check it out there. And if you have any feedback, comments, you wanna chime in on the discussion, use #AsaseBaPod on social media and follow the podcast page on Twitter . Again, that information is in the show notes below. Also, feel free to email asasebapod at asasebapod@gmail.com. And yeah, keep it respectful. But, you know, I wanna see everyone engaging and stuff. But yeah, as usual, just keep it respectful. The show airs every two weeks, so I will see you in two weeks for episode four. Bye!
[Asase Ba Theme Music]
Episode Notes
Olivia joins host Michelle to discuss her experiences as a queer Ghanaian woman, bisexuality, biphobia, the nuances of having a romantic and or sexual attraction towards women, her relationship to church, redefining her relationship with God, publishing authentic work while not out, dating when living with family, writing as a de-stressing outlet, sexual health and safety, and much more.
Join in on the conversation! Use the hashtag #AsaseBaPod.
SUPPORT
E-transfer or via PayPal to asasebapod@gmail.com. Thank you so much for your support.
SOCIAL MEDIA
Twitter: https://twitter.com/AsaseBaPod
GUEST
Olivia (pronouns: she/her) is a makeup artist & a writer.
Website: sizygee.com
RELEVANT LINKS
Tea with Queen & J. Podcast - Image Activism (term coined by Michaela Angela Davis) is discussed in episode #199 minute 19:00 - 28:00
https://soundcloud.com/tea-with-queen-and-j/199-oh-word
HOST
This podcast is produced, edited and hosted by Ghanaian Canadian Michelle (pronouns: she/her). She is also the creator of the theme music.
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